I am writing in response to Dan Kimball's article, "Missional Misgivings" (Refer to Kevin's last post). Although he gave us some good things to consider, overall the article discouraged me. The only 'misgiving' I had was toward his idea of "effective" ministry.
Dan begins his post with this statement: "Small, indigenous churches are getting lots of attention, but where's the fruit"?
Right here, Dan. I am the fruit.
I grew up in a fairly large Lutheran congregation. In high school, I went to youth group at a separate mega-church downtown. It was fun, it was flashy, and it was cool. Now, mind you, I am not here to bash mega-churches. I know they minister to large numbers of people, and I praise God for that. However, for someone who attended church her entire life, surrounded by a huge community of Christians, I felt alone. How is it that I attended a church with hundreds of people, yet knew only a handful? I went to church, I heard a great message, I got pumped up by the rock-band worship team, and went back to my normal life at home. I could skip a few Sundays, but I didn't need to worry- no one would notice. I was one of the hundreds. A small fish in a big sea. I was a member of a seemingly large support system, but did not feel supported.
In college, after much searching, I found a 'small, indigenous' church in downtown Spokane. For the first time I understood what Jesus meant when He talked about the Body of Christ. I felt like I was part of a family. People there were warm and inviting. I developed meaningful relationships with people, and was held accountable by my brothers and sisters. Church began to spill over into my week. It was no longer a Sunday event. It was a lifestyle.
This church was not perfect by any means. But it was here that I learned the importance of putting people first. It was here that my faith was most nurtured by the relationships I had.
Numbers? Small, but steady. There was growth, but nothing in comparison to the mega-congregation down the street. However, when we start looking at numbers to define the "success" of a church, we are missing the point.
In his article Dan Kimball, referring to one particular missional church, explains, "After fifteen years it hasn't multiplied. It's a wonderful community that serves the homeless, but there's no evidence of non-Christians beginning to follow Jesus. In the same city several megachurches are seeing conversions and disciples matured."
Alright Dan. Now I am overjoyed that conversions are happening left and right in that city's megachurches. I rejoice for that. However, it seems that he is discounting that missional church's ministry. He says himself that it is a "wonderful community that serves the homeless." It is a community that is taking giant steps in faith to serve the lost and forgotten. I have been to many churches over the years, and most steer clear of homeless ministry. It is uncomfortable, and takes a great deal of boldness to step out of your community and enter theirs. Building relationships with the homeless can be difficult. They do not give their trust easily, and most have been broken and abused in unspeakable ways. It's a whole different kind of ministry. We cannot judge a ministries success based on the number of people "we" convert. Last time I checked it is the Lord that changes the heart, not ourselves. We do not always get the privilege to see the fruit of our labor. Most of the time, hearts are not changed in an instant. The Spirit moves, but in His own time. Perhaps the church Dan speaks of has not "multiplied" in 15 years, but they are continuing in their ministry to the homeless and are being faithful to that call. Who's to say God is not stirring hearts in preparation for a later conversion?
Numbers do not determine effective ministry. Do we give Jesus a hard time for choosing only 12 disciples? Would it not have been much more effective to pour into 100 disciples who could disperse and spread the good news? How dare he assume 12 could do the job. Right?
Now I say this to stress a point. I am not saying that large groups are ineffective either. What I am saying is that Jesus knew how important it was to invest in relationships. He wanted a small group of disciples he could...wait for it...disciple. He wanted to develop a deep and meaningful relationship of trust with these men. He knew that the more he poured into them, the more they could pour into others. Clearly it worked. Open the Gospels and look at the great things these men did in faith.
As Kevin stated in his response, and I think he hits it right on, "I think the greater question is, "Who is your church trying to reach?" The answer to that question can lead to harder, less traveled paths of ministry. It can also lead to a more relationally based ministry that is hard to quantify in attendance, but is no less impacting."
I feel like there is so much more to say on this topic, but I want to stop here and ask for your thoughts.
I want to remind you again- my point is not to condemn one church model and praise another.
I do think Dan's article makes for an interesting discussion. I think it's good to be in conversation about such things...
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Hi Karli,
If this is a duplicate post, I apologize. I tried posting and it might not have gone through.
Anyway, wanted to let you know I understand what you are saying and raised in your blog post here. But as you highlighted the sub-title of the article "Small, indigenous churches are getting lots of attention" - that wasn't the sub-title of the original article or title. Out Of Ur added that on as they posted it, and unfortunately it then framed the whole article. I did comment on the Out Of ur blog to state that there after it was posted that way with that focus.
I am part of a church plant started in 2004, so I am not in a megachurch. I read your story and it was sad that you didn't experience community at your former church. I can say that I was part of a church of 3,500 people and what they did was intentionally develop mid-week smaller communities which in many ways functioned as a house church. And in that mid-week community I experienced very life-giving connections and community. But the larger church had to be intentional about making that part of their whole culture which they did. That is what I do see happening in many large churches today who are recognizing the limitations of the larger meeting so they focus a lot of energy in developing the mid-week smaller sized communities for life-connection to really happen. In our church now, we say regularly on Sundays in our larger meetings that "This isn't really the church. you really need to be in smaller community to experience community." So as a church plant we stress that, as many other churches I know do.
With the comments about the homeless, of course I believe that is critical and a natural part of being a church and disciples of Jesus. I developed it more in the original article, but I was stressing how in addition to paying attention to the homeless and those in need, we cannot ever forget the need of those in the cubicle next to us at work, or our neighbor living next door, or in our classrooms, or those in our day to day lives who are in need of a Savior. That missional also means following the patterns of the books of Acts and the disciples who did go to people and build relationships with those who did not know Jesus yet. So I was trying to raise the issue of not forgetting about evangelism to the average person all around us in addition to the homeless and needy. I have seen where "missional" becomes defined as social action, and it is part, but that isn't what "missional" is fully.
Anyway, that was my heart in it. And I apologize for how it came across. I better be more careful with articles that have potential for coming across weird when they are edited or titled by someone else.
Thank you for your heart and thoughts, and hope this makes sense!
Dan
Dan, it's awesome to hear your response and I thank you for chiming in.
I appreciate your clarifications.
Again, as I mentioned I am not here to bash one church model over the other.
I know we have seen both extremes: The megachurch with little focus on relationships and mission, and a 'missional' church with so much focus on outside ministries that the needs of its own members get neglected. There definitely has to be a balance.
We all desire to further God's Kingdom here on earth, and should strive for growth. We just have to keep in mind that growth does not always come quickly.
Thanks again for your thoughts Dan. I hope you will continue to be a voice in the conversations we have here.
It's a good blog post. I have been at a church with membership over 2,000 and even being involved in ministry and serving, this does not always bring fellowship. I have bloged about it too. For there to be true change in the church, people need to learn how to surrender thier complete lives over to God. Saying this and doing it, are 2 very different things. We need to be transformed by the Love and Power and Presence of God, to truely begin to start thinking outside the boxes "The Church" has put us in. I have read allot and recently blogged about "The God Chasers" by Tommy Tenney. He paints a Great picture of change that can happen if we Truely would "let go and let God". I hope you can stop by and read it, and some more of my other blogs. Being changed by the outpouring of God's Spirit in our lives, is the only real way revival in any form or fashion is going to happen.
Thanks for posting your reply Karli.
Thanks Dan for not only stopping by but adding clarification to your words. It means a lot.
Robin - I'll stop by and catch up on some of your posts.
Dan you comment on how missional has become defined as social action is right on. I hadn't thought about it that way, but at least in my mind the focus of being 'missional' had more to do with social action and not a balanced approach.
Good convo - lots to think about.
I have to say that I am a little torn by this post, in that im trying to figure out whether I agree with it fully. I do consider myself a member of the missional movement and a proponent of missional churches as opposed to attractional churches. This is simply because I seek, and believe that this generation seeks a more organic community based church.
In your post you said a few things I felt the need to address a bit.
"It's a whole different kind of ministry. We cannot judge a ministries success based on the number of people "we" convert. Last time I checked it is the Lord that changes the heart, not ourselves. We do not always get the privilege to see the fruit of our labor. Most of the time, hearts are not changed in an instant."
"Numbers do not determine effective ministry. Do we give Jesus a hard time for choosing only 12 disciples? Would it not have been much more effective to pour into 100 disciples who could disperse and spread the good news? How dare he assume 12 could do the job. Right?"
I do agree with you that it is the Lord that changes heart, however, it is our job to "bring" the Lord to the masses. I think when Jesus says "go into all the nations and make disciples" that is exactly what he means.
Please do not get me wrong, we cannot judge a communities success strictly on numbers. However, I strongly believe that any effective ministry will grow in numbers if it is following the precepts of scripture. Again not to say that the church Dan is speaking about isnt, but at the same time if it was truly a "missional model" i believe that it would be growing in numbers.
Further I think if we look at the ministry of Jesus we see that he picked twelve original apostles, then in turn they had disciples and followers that further Christs message under their direction. Also, not to forget the fact that everywhere that Jesus went people were being "converted" though it was not the main goal it happened simply because he was meeting spechiphic needs, i.e. feeding the hungry, healing the sick, ect.
Also I think it is really important to address the fact that this is still a really new emergence in the church, and because of that there are SO MANY different models, ideas, ect, of what it even means to be "missional". Thus, one church does not reflect the success of the entire movement. I know of many missional churches that a growing tremendously and still keeping their relational distinctives.
I am really glad that this is a conversation taking place on a large scale, its something we need to chat about.
Hi again,
Thanks for understanding and the responses. It all is interesting as there can be megachurches who do not provide environments for relationships, but at the same time there can be small churches very ingrown which also make it difficult for new people to enter community and therefore stay small. I am convinced it can happen in healthy ways in both, depending on the leadership's focus.
Ryan, yes Jesus did focus on 12, but those 12 then were used by God to see thousands (the New Testament does list numbers) of new disciples made. So the 12 Jesus invested in, empowered by the Spirit led thousands to follow Jesus and repent and put faith in Him. It is the Spirit who does the convicting of hearts and changing of someone - but the disciples were not passive. You read through the book of Acts and you see very passionate and action-oriented disciples. Even getting put in jail, being stones and beaten etc. because they took action to see new disciples being made. So it is the Spirit's role in changing, we are the messengers who then need to be out there in action (however that looks, I am not talking about street preaching).
Kevin, I kept hearing "fruit" of missional churches primarily being defined as social action. I fully believe that is part of it. But if that church is not making new disciples (as in those who aren't Christians becomming followers of Jesus) then the church will die off as it ages and then no social action will continue by that church. We have to be thinking about new disciples being made as Jesus said "go fish for people" "Go makde new disciples" and as I said, there is the whole of the New Testament which does model this when you study what the disciples actually did when they went out.
Thank for for the dialogue here - it is fun to think and be learning together!
Dan
It is so exciting to see everyone join in discussion. This blog was created to bring people into conversation- sharing insight, perspective, and ideas. It is encouraging to hear everyone's thoughts .
Ryan, thank you for your reply. I appreciate the things you addressed. I agree completely that we have a responsibility as Christians to share Christ with the masses. It is our job to be kingdom builders. God desires that all may know Him, and it is so important that we strive for growth in our ministries. We read about this in Acts. The ministry of the church was powerful, and the Lord added to their number DAILY!
A ministry should not become "stale". I do believe effective ministry will grow in numbers. The point I was trying to stress was that growth can look different and we cannot be too quick to judge the "effectiveness" of various ministries. I say this out of my own experience. I have seen megachurches that "convert" hundreds of teens in one night after a major church event. I have also seen people that are hardened toward the idea of Jesus, and it takes much longer for them to enter a real relationship with Him. It depends who we are ministering to. Homeless ministry is going to look way different than Young Life ministry. Relationships do not come as easily.
I do not think growth isn't important, it definitely is. Jesus poured into disciples so they would pour into others and His gospel would spread. We have a responsibility to share this great news. I wanted to make a point that numbers are important, but they are not everything. I have seen churches that compete for numbers, rather than hearts.
It is God that works. He is the fruit bearer. As long as we stay focused on Him, we can expect great things to happen no matter what our numbers are. As Robin reminds us, "being changed by the outpouring of God's Spirit in our lives, is the only real way revival in any form or fashion is going to happen."
Thanks again for all the responses. This is incredible.
What a great reminder I had this morning:
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.” - John 15:5,8
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